Kirti Dewan

Franco Caporale:

Hello and welcome to new episode of the Demand Generation Club Podcast. I'm your host, Franco Caporali. Our guest today is Kirti Dewan, Vice President of Marketing at Bugsnag. Bugsnag is the platform that helps developers take full ownership of the Code Day ship, while at the same time creating an enjoyable experience when fixing errors. Their customers include Lift, Gasto, 99Designs, Dropbox, Hotel Tonight and many more. Kirti brings a combination of industry based practices, creativity and scrappiness to the job through her rich experiences at early stage and venture back startups, publicly traded enterprise companies as well as her experience as a former partner analyst. Kirti is passionate about helping companies build a marketing foundation or scale an existing demand generation engine. So I'm really happy to welcome today Kirti Dewan, Vice President of Marketing at Bugsnag. Kirti, I'm really glad to have you today on our episode of the Demand Generation Club podcast. Thank you again for joining us.

Kirti Dewan:

Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.

Franco Caporale:

For those people that are listening out that who don't know you, can you share some information about your current role and your career trajectory?

Kirti Dewan:

So I'm currently the VP of marketing at Bugsnag. We are a series B startup and we focus on application stability management for mobile web and backend apps, and which is also in layman terms, an air monitoring platform. And we were acquired two months ago by Smartbear and they are based in Summerville, a suburb of Boston. Prior to this, I was a consultant and I had been consulting for about two years before joining Bugsnag and did a variety of projects with big companies as well as startups back then. Prior to consulting was also part of three other startups. Those were all full-time roles. And prior to that I was a big company person who made the switch over to startup land. I'm glad that I did. I absolutely love it. Worked at a bunch of big companies, VMware being one of them. Way, way back I was an analyst with the Gartner Group as well.

Franco Caporale:

So first of all, congratulations on the acquisition. It must be a very exciting time to be a Bugsnag.

Kirti Dewan:

Thank you.

Franco Caporale:

Can you tell us about your team? What's the size of your team and what kind of roles do you have right now in your team?

Kirti Dewan:

We have nine people on the marketing team, then including me. We have a growth team, which has folks that are focused on ABM, campaigns, programs, as well as marketing analytics, a product marketer. We have a content marketer role open. We have an events team that also helps drive our community program as well as our swag program, which is quite popular. And then also a website producer as well as a brand and visual designer.

Franco Caporale:

That's fantastic. That's an ideal team, especially for a startup. So you are in a great position now. You have this amazing career and you're now VP of Marketing and a lot of people in this community are aspired to have the same kind of a career path. So in our conversation you share a lot of really good advice. I want to focus today on this five learnings that you acquire from your career trajectory as a B2B marketing leader. So can we try to unpack this a little bit if you have to-

Kirti Dewan:

Yeah, let's go for it.

Franco Caporale:

If you have to mention the first thing, what would be the first learning that you want to share from your career to be a real leader?

Kirti Dewan:

Yeah. So there are five learnings that I would say have been key for me and in no particular order. But the first one is something that I'm stealing from my CEO. It's a line that I'm stealing from my CEO. It's funny, we were doing a Go To Market planning session and one afternoon we said, let's take a break and go get some lunch. So we were walking to get a sandwich and we were just talking about the decisions and challenges that were in front of us. And he basically said this line where he said, "I've become comfortable being uncomfortable". And I thought that it summed it up so beautifully because that's literally what you are doing every day, if not probably every hour, every half hour. And so you're constantly looking at new challenges, you are being dealt with just unpredictable things that get thrown at you.

You are placing bets, you are taking risks and you're making decisions and you're making decisions based so many times on complete unknowns and things that have never been done before. And so you do have to make them based on the best educated guess that you can and it's all about you learn over time that when your gut has been speaking to you, it's really something that you should be listening to. And now that I look back and I realize that even when I was younger, I had a pretty strong instinct, but you're just happy, carefree, you have probably fewer decisions to make and you're like, oh yes.

In hindsight, you're like, oh yeah, actually my brain had said this to me and maybe that is the door that I should have taken. But as you get older and you pay attention to every signal that you're getting and these voices in your head, you realize that there's really some value and some truth to that. And yeah, never dismiss the gray hair that you have because it really is saying something. So I think that trusting your gut has been a big learning as well over the years.

Franco Caporale:

And that's what separates a junior person from a senior leader, is the junior person typically waits to hear ways to be told what to do. And the senior leader makes the decision not because necessarily knows everything, just because has the confidence to do it.

Kirti Dewan:

Right. You got to trust what you are believing. And if you think that you have a rationale for that, whether its qualitative information, whether its data that you have, whether its past experience, whether its something you learn from a peer of yours, whether you've seen that situation play out, probably not in a professional sense, but somewhat similarly in a personal situation, maybe there're learnings from there. So again, you're constantly battling with these dilemmas and sitting on the fence. And so it becomes second nature to step back and say, wow, that was a really uncomfortable moment. Oh wait, I actually had four of those today. And as you become more mindful and you start becoming a lot more introspective and you're very much in tune with what your body and your mind is saying to you, I think that it's all part of that journey.

Franco Caporale:

Fantastic. I love this.

Kirti Dewan:

Human journey in fact, not just on a professional sense. Human journey, even on a personal level.

Franco Caporale:

So remember to become as uncomfortable as you can, as often as possible. Perfect. What other learnings do you want to share with us?

Kirti Dewan:

Based on the trust your gut and the uncomfortable situations that we were talking about, one of the things, and I did mention that hey, they can be learnings from the personal front as well. So one of the things that I say to my kids all the time when there's chaos in the home and someone is just so unhappy because all the Skittles disappeared from the pantry and mom ate all the Skittles, but she never told me, and someone else is worried that their textbook is not going to arrive on that exact day that the teacher said it should. All these things, just so much stuff happening with kids and the family.

So one of the things I always say to them is respond, don't react. Because if you're reacting, you're doing it in the moment and you haven't spent a single second in thinking about what you are going to say, what you just said, what it means to the other person, whether it could be hurtful, whether it confuses the other person. So stay calm, take a step back, take a few minutes if you need to, respond to the situation so that you can tackle it and handle it, don't react to it because you've already gone down a rabbit hole and then it's even more work to pull yourself out of that. But if you stay calm and you step back, you are equipping yourself with all the tools needed so that you can handle that situation.

Franco Caporale:

That's absolutely right. And it is something I tried to also convey to my team is, especially in business, don't take things personally. There is nothing personal. It's all about business. So if not, you tend to overreact just emotionally.

Kirti Dewan:

Right. And it goes back to something that we all hear commonly and pretty frequently, that hey, if you are really annoyed or frustrated about something and you start writing an email, don't send that email. Walk away, come back the next morning and read that email and you yourself will be like, oh, I don't want to say that. So that's a simple example, but there are just so many other scenarios like this where so many times you're in a meeting, you have to think on your feet and the dynamics of the meeting may not be what you would have expected, but at the same time there are ways to just take note of the moment and you digest the information that you have and you can come back to it.

Franco Caporale:

Yeah, I think also in my view, the best leaders, they're always calm. They never seem agitated, even in the moment of extreme pressure, you always see them really calm and always irrational.

Kirti Dewan:

That's right. Yes, yes. I'm not saying that I'm one of those, yeah. That is a very tough journey-

Franco Caporale:

It's tough.

Kirti Dewan:

And it's complex with a myriad of emotions that are constantly surrounding us. So yes, that is a ongoing exercise.

Franco Caporale:

Absolutely. What else? So we have two very good learnings so far. What other things have you really gained a lot of insights from? What is one thing that you want to share?

Kirti Dewan:

The ability to make data driven and outcome based decisions. For me at least, that has increased over the years as well. And by data I mean not just numbers, it could also be informational data, qualitative data that you get. But going into every situation knowing that there's going to be a positive side to it and there's going to be a negative side to it in most situations sometimes they're all just positive and each of them has its own outcome and each of them then has an impact to whatever that, whether it's a business driver, a business goal, whether it's something new that we have to do in the marketing team. Maybe it's a new experiment that we are about to launch.

So knowing that there are two sides to every situation, again looking at it holistically on what each of those positive and negatives could look like and realizing that you're going into this with your eyes wide open and you are not only prepared if the situation goes a certain way that you didn't expect or maybe you weren't able to move the decision in your direction, at least you are prepared to handle that.

Franco Caporale:

And you mentioned about the knowledge that you acquire in all of this different situation over the years, which you probably have seen of many, many different kind of situation.

Kirti Dewan:

So all that becomes part of the experienced toolbox and it goes back to the gray hair again, but the experience toolbox, basically it builds up from situation to situation. And then when you have all this knowledge and background, you are even extrapolating from that. And again, each situation is unique, but one, you know that are equipped to handle it. But at the end of the day, nearly everything is solvable and nearly everything is negotiable.

Franco Caporale:

I like that. I like when you say that nearly everything is solvable. If you really spend time and try to analyze all the data, there is almost always a solution. Almost always.

Kirti Dewan:

Yes. And I have a funny anecdote there as well, talking about life's experiences. We were doing some home projects and I had asked my general contractor, and I want to move these lights right over there and then do this, but I want the window to go there. And I said, is this possible? And I remember that he had paused and said anything is possible. It all depends.

Franco Caporale:

Depends on what you can put into it.

Kirti Dewan:

Right.

Franco Caporale:

There's always time, resources, constraints-

Kirti Dewan:

Like budget.

Franco Caporale:

In an environment of unlimited resources and time, everything is possible.

Kirti Dewan:

Right.

Franco Caporale:

Fantastic. So what would be the fourth learning?

Kirti Dewan:

The fourth one I would say, and I hope I am wording this okay and not being a little bit extreme here, but basically it's be brave. Don't be afraid to be brave. It's totally okay. Sometimes you just have to push yourself against the wall and say yes as much as you can, because by saying no, then how will you ever know how it would have turned out? And then you wouldn't have taken the risk and you won't learn. So be brave, but don't die on the battlefield. So I've seen in the past where several times people feel really passionate about making a certain decision or from that matter myself as well, that the company has this huge glaring gap and it needs to be addressed and someone has to do something about it. And if it doesn't happen at that point in time, just the impact on the business is going to be more severe. It's going to be higher than several factors of magnitude.

So yes, be passionate, but don't let it consume you because you can then land up being negative. Or maybe the way you giving your feedback, it's not that constructive all the time. And maybe it starts popping up in the conversations you're having. And our brain is very good at playing games with us and so we got to control the mind as well. So even if you are, be passionate and be brave, but don't do it in such a way that you get killed on the battlefield.

I've seen an instance in the past where someone was really right about several things that needed to be established or instituted in the company, but by becoming vocal, it didn't help. And so take stock off which are the things worth fighting for. You don't need to fight for everything, even if you may be 100% passionate about all of them. Prioritize, look at things from the big picture point of view. And you can't be a martyr. Everything can happen and you don't necessarily need to be that person-

Franco Caporale:

You have to pick your battles too, right?

Kirti Dewan:

Right. You pick your battles and if you're really getting into the muddy waters and you're really going into a sticky situation, maybe you want to build some partnerships as well. And that way you are going in there as a unit as opposed to landing up on the battlefield and you probably don't even have an armor or a shield or a sword or whatever ammo that you need.

Franco Caporale:

I agree a hundred percent on this. I've seen it multiple times and it came backfire. Absolutely. Perfect. What would be the last advice that you have for us?

Kirti Dewan:

So I just said something about look at things from a 360 degree point of view. Take stock of the situation. And that brings me to the next point, which is I've noticed that several times I can wonder, sometimes I can get annoyed and I see that with my peers as well, that the team members that they have don't necessarily have the same perspective that they do. So we are not sharing the same perspective. And it's not because they don't want to or because they cannot. It's more than likely it is because they don't have all the information that I do or they haven't been able to step back as much as I have and really connect the dots. And you are not just thinking about the situation at hand, you also have to think about the metadata. What are the things and the factors that are being set between the lines or the new forces that are coming into play here but are not necessarily being spoken about.

So you understand the metadata, you have to again translate that into what it means for that 360 degree view. And coming to the realization that my team members don't necessarily, they don't have in their toolbox, the ability to get that big picture thinking, interconnectedness of the engine is the term I use. Often it's being mindful about getting in there and helping them out and coaching them to see this point of view or seeing the picture as well. But again, not moving them into a direction of, hey, I think this is what you should do. Providing them the information and then let them make that decision as well. Let them come back with that proposal. So instead of being annoyed and irritated, there's a way to turn that around so that it can work for both parties.

Franco Caporale:

That's fantastic. I want to summarize this because these are great learnings and I think there's a lot to take out from this conversation. So you mentioned as a number one, you have to become comfortable being uncomfortable, which I love that line and we're going to steal from your CEO. You want to respond but not react. You want to make data driven decision as much as possible and gain that knowledge for the future so that once you become older, you have a lot of learnings from past situation. You want to can be a superhero, I mean be brave, but don't die on the battlefield necessarily. So pick your battles and not everything has to become a fight. And then the last one that I really like is your team not always have the full context. They don't always see what you see. So you have to keep that in mind, but also coach them to learn and become aware of the 360 degree situation, basically.

Kirti Dewan:

Yes. I love the coaching portion where it really feels so good to work with your team members to bring them on the journey as well. Everyone has potential and so it's really our responsibility is to help everyone on their journey.

Franco Caporale:

Absolutely. And for you, I have one more question Kirti, which is, since you are in a very senior leadership position as a VP of Marketing, what is that one thing that is keeping you up at night that you want to solve?

Kirti Dewan:

So I should start by saying that I am a pretty heavy sleeper and some of my friends are teasing me all the time. I can also really sleep pretty long hours and my weekends are very special to me. But that said, what worries me is the marketing mix. Is it the combination of things that we're doing? Is that enough? Should we do more? Or maybe while we are doing, the mix is right, but is the percentage split between them is right? Which dial should go up, which dial should come down? How much of that mix is something that we've done before where we have the knowledge versus experimental? Should the percentage split between those change as well?

And then the team comes into play. Okay, do we have the right resources? Do we have the right competency levels? Maybe someone else has potential but they're not in that role yet. What is the mentoring that can be given there? And then budget also is always a factor, but looking at it from so many different dimensions on are we doing the right thing? Are we leaving something on the table? Can we do better? Can we do something more of something and oh, did we totally miss this other thing that we could be doing?

Franco Caporale:

Yeah, I think the effectiveness of the marketing mix is a problem that is shared by many, many marketing leaders here. So yeah, how to solve that is probably another whole podcast and a pretty long one.

Kirti Dewan:

That's right, that's right, because you constantly got to keep monitoring it. It keeps you on your toes, it definitely keeps you on your toes.

Franco Caporale:

Absolutely. Kirti, this was really great. I learned a lot. So thanks again for joining our podcast.

Kirti Dewan:

Oh my pleasure. This was wonderful. Thank you for the opportunity, Franco.